Fact: There was a contrast of day and night in these two riots. NDTV, the mouthpiece of the CPI (M), and company, and other stark liars like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalavad, and others deliberately misled the nation by equating the two riots. In May-June 2005, NDTV deliberately asked a question to its viewers in its programme “Khabron ki Khabar” (anchored by Vinod Dua):
“Which of these issues are you most bothered about?
1-Sachin Tendulkar’s injury
2-A question on films
3-The blot on BJP and the Congress for the Gujarat and 1984 riots
This question’s options, just like any other of NDTV, are typically Marxist. Option 3 belies the reality and equates the 1984 riots with the Gujarat riots, and directly accuses the BJP of orchestrating the riots. (An article on some facts about the media can be read here “NDTV is CPM Today“. And another article which is worth reading is “The channels strategy of attacks”. Note that these articles are purely the view of the blogger and not of Gujaratriots.com )
The next chapter will comprehensively point out the differences between the Gujarat riots and the 1984 riots. In 1984, the Sikhs were butchered. In 2002, Muslims attacked Hindus and as many as 254 Hindus were killed in the Gujarat riots. In 1984, riots occurred outside New Delhi, including places like West Bengal, Tripura, while not a single riot occurred outside Gujarat in 2002.
In 1984, officially 3,000 Sikhs were killed. Not a single Congressman was killed in 1984 riots (except Indira Gandhi) while as many as 313 Hindus were killed in Gujarat in 2002 AD, including 59 karsevaks killed in Godhra.
Not even one person was killed in 1984 in police firing, while 170 people were killed in police firing and many others were killed in Army firing in the Gujarat riots of 2002 AD. 40,000 Hindus were living in refugee camps in Gujarat, while not even a single relief camp was organized for the Sikhs in 1984, not to talk of any Congressman needing to live in refugee camps. Not only was there a huge difference in the nature of the riots- there was also a huge difference in the government handling of the riots.
There are many more details of these contrasts. For full details of these contrasts- see the next chapter. Click on the link:
http://www.gujaratriots.com/category/07-contrasts-between-1984-and-gujarat-2002-riots/
BAN THE RSS on youtube!!!
http://www.youtube.com/Bantherss
Ban your fascist thoughts of banning rival ideologies. You do not allow different ideologies- and as has been said by others in this forum- because you cannot properly argue- you SIMPLY PUT IRREVELENT THINGS- and use abuses- such as your favorite word- “Moron”.
I wonder why the moderators of this site have posted such words- from a man who is incapable of respecting the opponent’s arguments. In any civilized society- a healthy debate is expected- where the debators have respect for each other’s knowledge and simply counter the arguments.
You put in irrelevent thingsa- like BJPs defeat in 2004- or Rajnath-Jaitley differences. What has that got to do with the Gujarat riots of 2002 AD?
Instead of RSS- Congress needs to be banned because of its murder of 3000 Sikhs in 1984.
Because of the gruesome roasting of 59 Hindus in Godhra by its leaders of Godhra.
Because of the conviction of its Muslim leader for terrorist acts in September 2008-in Surat 1993 blasts case-a former Congress Minister.
See this link- http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/05/stories/2008100555651000.htm
Has a single RSS member ever been found guilty of wrongdoing in any communal matter in any court of law in any state in India??????????????
this is the only reason why india is what is is today…this why people in india hate each, rapes and crime are increasing on an alarming rate, because the corrupted and criminals are never caught or let go easily despite so much evidence against them…
this is why people are still dying in delhi, mumbai, goa, bangalore and even gujarat…
oh yea your so called hindu people just got charged with raping a innocent college student for over months in gujarat, if you don;’t know about do read the local dailies of gujarat, school teachers all of them hindu, gang raped a 1st year for several months JAI SRHI RAMM AND DRINK SOME COW PISS NOW 🙂
HOW CAN THIS KIND OF ORGANIZATION BE HUMAN OR BENEFICIAL TO HUMAN RACE???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umJn98SPcsg&feature=related
Sikh Genocide of 1984: long search for culprits
It is generally believed that the Congress cadres were behind this genocide. This is true but there were other forces too which actively participated in this massacre and whose role has never been investigated. Those who were witness to the genocide of 1984 were stunned by the swiftness and military precision of the killer marauding gangs (later on witnessed during the Babri mosque demolition, burning alive of Dr. Graham Steins with his two sons and recent pogrom of the Muslims in Gujarat) who went on a burning spree of the innocent Sikhs. This was beyond the capacity of the Congress thugs.
I have an important RSS document which may throw some light on the unhidden aspects of the genocide. It was authored and circulated by a veteran ideologue of the RSS, Nana Deshmukh on November 8, 1984. Interestingly, this document was published in the Hindi Weekly Pratipaksh edited by George Fernandes (Defence Minister of India 1999-2004, and presently a great pal of the RSS) in its edition of November 25, 1984 titled ‘Indira Congress-RSS collusion’ with the following editorial comment:
“The author of the following document is known as an ideologue and policy formulator of the RSS. After the killing of Prime Minister (Indira Gandhi) he distributed this document among prominent politicians. It has a historical significance that is why we have decided to publish it, violating policy of our Weekly. This document highlights the new affinities developing between the Indira Congress and the RSS. We produce here the Hindi translation of the document.”
This document may help in unmasking the whole lot of criminals involved in the massacre of innocent Sikhs who had nothing to do with the killing of Indira Gandhi. This document may also throw light on where the cadres came from, who meticulously organized the killing of Sikhs. Nana Deshmukh in this document is seen outlining the justification of the massacre of the Sikh community in 1984. According to him the massacre of Sikhs was not the handiwork of any group or anti-social elements but the result of a genuine feeling of anger among Hindus of India.
This document also shows the true degenerated and fascist attitude of the RSS towards all the minorities of India . The RSS has been arguing that they are against Muslims and Christians because they are the followers of foreign religions. Here we find them justifying the butchering of Sikhs who according to their own categorization happened to be the followers of an indigenous religion.
The RSS often poses as a firm believer in Hindu-Sikh unity. But in this document we will hear from the horse’s mouth that the RSS like the then Congress leadership, believed that the massacre of the innocent Sikhs was justified. Nana Deshmukh in this document is seen outlining the justification of the massacre of the Sikh community in 1984. His defence of the carnage can be summed up as in the following.
1. The massacre of Sikhs was not the handiwork of any group or anti-social elements but the result of a genuine feeling of anger among Hindus of India.
2. Deshmukh did not distinguish the action of the two security personnel of Mrs. Indira Gandhi, who happened to be Sikhs, from that of the whole Sikh community. From his document it emerges that the killers of Indira Gandhi were working under some kind of mandate of their community. Hence attacks on Sikhs were justified.
3. Sikhs themselves invited these attacks, thus advancing the Congress theory of justifying the massacre of the Sikhs.
4. He glorified the ‘Operation Blue Star’ and described any opposition to it as anti-national. When Sikhs were being killed in thousands he was warning the country of Sikh extremism, thus offering ideological defense of those killings.
5. It was Sikh community as a whole which was responsible for violence in Punjab .
6. Sikhs should have done nothing in self-defence but showed patience and tolerance against the killer mobs.
7. These were Sikh intellectuals and not killer mobs which were responsible for the massacre. They had turned Sikhs into a militant community, cutting them off from their Hindu roots, thus inviting attacks from the nationalist Indians. Interestingly, Deshmukh would not mind having militant Hindus. Moreover, he treated all Sikhs as part of the same gang and defended attacks on them as a reaction of the nationalist Hindus.
8. He described Indira Gandhi as the only leader who could keep the country united and on the killing of such a great leader such killings could not be avoided.
9. Rajiv Gandhi who succeeded Mrs. Gandhi as the Prime Minister of India and justified the nation- wide killings of Sikhs by saying, “When a huge tree falls there are always tremors felt”, was lauded and blessed by Nana Deshmukh at the end of the document.
10. Shockingly, the massacre of Sikhs was being equated with the attacks on the RSS cadres after the killing of Gandhiji and we find Deshmukh advising Sikhs to suffer silently. Everybody knows that the killing of Gandhiji was inspired by the RSS and the Hindutva Ideology whereas the common innocent Sikhs had nothing to do with the murder of Mrs. Indira Gandhi.
11. There was not a single sentence in the Deshmukh document demanding, from the then Congress Government at the Centre, remedial measures for controlling the violence against the minority community. Mind this, that Deshmukh circulated this document on November 8, 1984, and from October 31 to this date Sikhs were left alone to face the killing gangs. In fact November 5-10 was the period when the maximum killings of Sikhs took place. Deshmukh was just not bothered about all this.
Deshmukh document did not happen in isolation. It represented the real RSS attitude towards Sikh genocide of 1984. The RSS is very fond of circulating publicity material, especially photographs of its khaki shorts- clad cadres doing social work. For the 1984 violence they have none. In fact, Deshmukh’s article also made no mention of the RSS cadres going to the rescue of Sikhs under siege. This shows up the real intentions of the RSS during the genocide.
There is not a single sentence in the Deshmukh document demanding, from the then Congress Government at the Centre, remedial measures for controlling the violence against the minority community. Importantly, Deshmukh circulated this document on November 8, 1984, and from October 31 to this date Sikhs were left alone to face the killing gangs. George Fernandes while making this document public in 1984 wrote that it showed ‘Indira Congress-RSS collusion’. Nanavati Commission must investigate whether this collusion was confined to political sphere or went beyond to killing fields.
beta deepak,
I read in one thread, where you claimed that you are living in USA and are proud of it and all…but later you said you have not even seen USA and live in Delhi…..LOL
This proves you one BIG JOKE by your parents.
lol
Mr. Deepak,
Are you warning India about another Bomb Blast?. I think others should take a note of this and probably inform the cops.
Police will have better ways to find out the IP address of this guy and i am pretty sure he is using a fake name and identity.
Vij and others;
I will call him or any one Mr, because my culture, my HINDU culture taught me to be cultured and not be a barbarian. I belive i understand the Noble HINDU culture and so i behave like this and not because i am born in USA.
Thanks guys for all the discussions.
Regards
Arun
Arun,
Why don’t you file a FIR in state of GUJARAT (STATE OF THE RAPIST) ?? lets see how quickly police come into action…lolz, if they could do anything , people wouldn’t be dying in India everyday…if they had done their duty, there would never have been a GODHRA in first place and never had GUJARAT happened.
Also I am not warning India, I am just using same mentality this site uses to counter violence..they say FOR THIS SIN OF 2000 MUSLIMS, ONLY 1000 MUSLIMS WERE KILLED , and now I wish for the SIN OF 100,000 HINDUS OF GUJARAT, SOME INNOCENTS MUST BE KILLED.. so I hope you get my point…and i think you are forgetting India doesn’t have a patriot act, so they can really bother me sitting in US, you see this is real democracy, no one can dare touch me in my home, got it?? anyways I pay too much taxes for the US government to bother me, they love me for being an active citizen helping the economy..
and do take my advise seriously though, so file an FIR in GUJARAT against me instead of sitting in your daddy made luxury room and being a ABCD!! for realzz doode!! lmao
Glad you do understand our NOBLE HINDU CULTURE, but I don’t think you can say the same for your fellow partners in india, who hate minorities to a level that they are willing to kill them in most brutal forms, rape their women and even rape their children who are nuthing but children 🙁
i feel like crying when i read about anti sikh riots not because sikhs were killed but because of the people who killed them(hindus),history says u people could not save honour of ur sisters and mothers u people would abandon even ur mothers to save your life and at the end we sikhs saved your sisters and mothers
To,all ‘ real’ Hindus(not just like half mad secularist)on this site,
SHREEMAD BHAGWADGEETA teaches us one powerful line.This line show what exactly Prabhu Shree Krishana wanted to say about our religion
“YADA YADA HI DHARMASYA GLANIRBHAVATI BHARATAHA| ADBHUTHANAM DHARMASYA TADATNATMANAM SHRUJANMYA HAM | PARITRANAYACH SADHUNAM VINASHAYACH DUSHKRUTAM DHARMA SANSTHAPANARTHAYA SAMBHAVAMI YUGE YUGE ||
So wake my all real Hindu guys,the exact meaning of above line is Bhagwan will save our religion by weapon.not by Ahimsa(non vilonce) or Secularism.It means to save our Hindu religion,Hindu people can use weapons.So save our religion from Muslim and Christian religions.It is easy for psuedo secularist,to barking against Sangh Parivar and other Hindu organisation by sitting in the USA but working in Adivasi sector is much harder and harder.
If some religion are acting against Hindu religion,then I assure to you all Hindu guys,Sangh Parivar will strike back for saving our religion.Agar secularist bichme aye to unko bhi jala denge.
KARMA KARO! HA HA HA ! Wo bhi US main baithkar! Fu fu fu! Microwave ! HI HI HI!
Jai shree Ram! Long live Hinduism!
To,Deepak(Hindu but not fanatics),
Agar Hindu religion ke liye hame Narak mile tobhi gam nahi,we are ready for it.atleast ham Teesta setlewad ke chamche to nahi kahelaenge tumhare jaise!
Where is your Teesta Setlewad now? Kahi moov chupake baithi hogi!
Only using rubbish and meaningless lauguage does not proved that you are most sensible secularist! Atleast T.Setalwad was showed her dare by raise voice against Mr.N.Modiji.But what are you doing for Secularism? nothing.go go in the Papistan and Afganistan,You have a lot of scope for your so called secular business.
Human values? Teach them who were responsible for Godhra train burned incident,Rabodi riots,Baroda riots.Teach them who were responsible for murder of VHP leader and Yogi swami Laxmanand in the Orrisa,teach them who were responsible for the painful life of our Kashmiri Hindu Pandit and theire children.Many Hindu kashmiri women were raped in the Kashmir valley.they are not human?they are not innocent?is there difference between Hindu women and Muslim women? Ask them who are still suffering from handicapness since they were child in the riots of partition of Hindustan! If it is just history for you then for me Gujarat riots are History too.
Ja Teesta setalwad ke bacche ja,Tu sirf USA me baithke bate kar! Watch the film ‘Swades’.learn something from it.and then try to teach us.Christmus gaya bhad mai!
Karma karo! HI HI HI ! Human values! Nice word! Microwave! Fu Fu Fu!
Jai Shree Ram! Long live Hinduism!
To Deefuck,
Cool beta cool! Itna gussa nahi karate! Isse blood pressure high hosakta hain aur finally heartattack bhi aa sakta hain! So cool down!
Meaning of line from Bhagwadgeeta(यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य) kahase tune ye meaning copy and paste kiya yaar! HI HI HI !
I have already told you for making Akhand Hindu Rastra,we can do whatever as per situation demanded.Samaz ne valon ko ishara kafi hain.
Watch the film ‘Swades’ first.Try to learn from that movie.Agar dimagme AKAL naam ki koi chij hain to think on it.If you have nothing in your brain then it is not your mistake.Akal Prabhu ki gift hoti hain! Afsos!
I need not try to harm you.Hindu Rastra wo bhi Akhand ho raha hain ye dekhkar,tum apne aap Teesta setalwaad ke saath Atlantic ocean me kud jayega! Kya kare frustration aisi hi chij hoti hain!
If i am not wrong,when Sangh Parivar stopped all highways of kashmir valley,that time congress was ruler party of the J&K state.What happened? Kya ukhada RSS ka? In Maharastra,at the time of Miraj riots,Sangh Parivar burned out many houses and Mastjids?Kya kiya congress ne? keep praising congress.HA HA HA!
Muje mere ghar walon ke samne nanga karke maroge?Waise din me sapne dekhana buri baat nahi hai!
Karma karo! HA HA HA! Microwave! Where? FU FU FU
JAI SHREEEE RAMMMM! Long live Hinduism! Prananam to Adya Sarsanghchalak!Hell to secularism and SICKULARIST!
What is Hindu religion?HI HI HI!
Keep thinking on it!
To,all real Hindus on this site(except half mad secularist),
Hindu religion is not just a simple religion but it is more than special.It is a flow of different thoughts,culture,habits etc.This all features are reflecting on the living style of Hindu peoples.Hindu religion was always ready to accept new things from other religion.AHIMSA PARMO DHARMA is the main guidline of Hindu religion.
But since past nearly 1000 years Hindu religion faced a horrible attacked on the Hindu people and Hindu culture.Muslim and Christian religions were tried hard to destroyed this beautiful religion.But fortunately,there were some Avtar of Prabhu Krishna like Veer Maha Rana Pratap,Maha Rana Sang,Guru Govindsingh,Shree ShivajiMaharaj,Shree Sambhaji Maharaj who were tried to save Hindu religion and its culture.
Hindu religion is always tolerated the aggressive activities of Muslim and Christian religion.Due to this,Hindu religion is losing his strength and culture.
Sangh Parivar is just wanted to Hindus own Akhand Hindu Rashtra.For that purpose they have creat sub organisation like VHP,BJD etc.Hinduon ki Raksha karna ye hi to Sangh Parivar ka kam hain,ham Khun ka badla khun se hi lenge.Secularism is real enemy of Hindu rashtra.Ham iss ko ukhad kar hi fek denge.Jo bhi samne ayega wo gaya…..suf Fus!
Karma karo! jago hindu logo jago! microwave anewali hain! fus fus ha ha ha!
Jai ShreeRam! Long live Hinduism and Hindustan! Jai Shivaji Maharaj!
To,Deepak(HBNF),
If you have some guts then start your so called secular business in the Papistan and Afganistan where Muslim and Christian people suffering from terrorism itself.
Go,go they people wants you.Rather than barking against RSS and sub organisation,you should work in the Papistan and Afganistan where people are strugling for save thire lives.
remember one thing Ham sirf barasate nahi,Pahad banke tut padte hain! Gutnese sochna ban kar!
Jai ShreeRAM!
Heartiest Congratulations to constituents of Maharashtra, Haryana and Arunachal for showing their firm belief in Secular and truly national party Congress.
Yet again, time after time, majority of people have made my belief more strong that we all will live together, under same roof. This country is not some property of a PIMP called Bhagwat from an unknown place.
Thanks to all who kept congress in power, because as far as we are governing India, these chaddi hanuman’s can’t rise up.
I am glad you see fascist forces loose terribly in Haryana and Arunachal, in haryana almost white washed, sooner or later, all these sister/brother parties will thing of past. Ram mandir should me made, in fact more than 1000 should be made, but not on the blood of innocent people.
If we make Ram mandir, a little away from disputed Babri site, will our religion disown us??? Think about it, again, thanks to secular people of India.
Long Live mutli-cultural harmony, death and shame on Hindutva Brigade and their slaves.
Vivek Sir,
Karm Karo Karm…HUMNE APNA KARM DIYA, ELECTION BHI JEETA AUR LOGON KA VISHWAS BHI, AB APNI BHENON (SHIV SENA, RAM SENA AND ALL ) KO IKATTHA KARO AUR KAR KARKE DIKHAO…
RAM MANDIR BANA KE DIKHAO
HINDU RASHTRA BANA KE DIKHAO…
KUCH KARM KARO KARM…
Aise words mat use karo ..”as per situation”, “we are working for hindus”… apna real motive COMPLETE KARKE DIKHAO…PAHLE SHURU TU KARO.
You said, we re not making ram mandir currently because India is faced with many more problem, was India not facing same problems in 92? TAB BABRI GIRAYI KYUN THI?? Agar india ka itna khyaal tha, to us samay kyun itne log mare, hain?? BABRI GIRATE HUE INDIA KA KHYAAL NAHI AYA, AB MANDIR BANATE HUE BOHOT YAAD AA RAHI HAI??
HI HI HI…SAB FUS FUS FUS…
Ye elections hai Microwave, karma karo kar, gulami karo aur madir bana ke dikhao, maa ka dhudh piya hai to bana ke dikhao.
tum gale 100 saal lage raho, nahi bana paoge madir us jagah, because that motive is immoral and only politically based!!
JAIII SHREEE RAM!
Sikhs started terrorism in Punjab. They killed thousands of Hindhus & drive away millions of Hindhus from Punjab Number of Sikhs killed in Delhi in 1984 riots were peanut compare to lakhs of hindhus killed by sikh terrorist. My friends in this forum should understand if hindhus in India have even 10% barbarism what Sikhs have what would have happen to them. Hindus are most tolerant among all religion but there is limit to this tolerance and innocent sikhs in delhi just payed price of what Sikh terrorist have done to Hindhus in Punjab
Respectable sikh cop KPS Gill eliminated sikh terrorist & thier sympathise
Sikhs started terrorism in Punjab. They killed thousands of Hindhus & drive away millions of Hindhus from Punjab Number of Sikhs killed in Delhi in 1984 riots were peanut compare to lakhs of hindhus killed by sikh terrorist. My friends in this forum should understand if hindhus in India have even 10% barbarism what Sikhs have what would have happen to them. Hindus are most tolerant among all religion but there is limit to this tolerance and innocent sikhs in delhi just payed price of what Sikh terrorist have done to Hindhus in Punjab
Hindus have been most tolerant but there is limit to it.
1.Sikhs militant killed 100,000 hindus & drive away 2 million hindus from punjab between 1980 to 1990::::5000 sikhs killed in 1984 is very small reaction for thier ills
2.Muslims killed 100 thousands of hindhus all over world and drive away all hindhus from Kashmir ::::Godhra is very small lesson for them that Hindhus patience is running out
om namoh shivay. 1st of all i wud like 2 say hindusim is saviour of all relegion & n m sure it vl for the infinite. the matter of consideration is y we r losing our loyality for each other. we should proud tto be hindu. we are the 3rd largest community in this universe. no doubt we are known as gentlemen in this world for our civil beahve and culture. but time has spin friends. we have to wake up our internal souls. i think we have forgotten we are aryans the real soldiers. forget humanity hindus otherwise we will no longer survive in this world. we should remember ashoka, mauryas,gupts rulers. we should proud on them becoz they preserved indian culture at that time by staking their lives.if we want to br live in this world we have to cut all other communities. in simple words my words for hindus jagriti hinduon katna seekho na ki katna. kab tak kat-te rahoge agar aise he hal raha tha to ek din hum is duniya mein nahi rahenge. now my questions for all fucking leaders wat the hell they are doing with nation. they d’nt know wt they should do for hindus and hindusatn. 1984, the unforgetable incident for sikhs. but is there any person who is able 2 tell me have they ever treid to thnk about hindus. wat they have did at that time , why hindus were forcefully repell out from punjab. hindus were also killed in 1984.sorry not only in 1984, they were killing 1980 to 1995 duration. 15 years is not a less time after punjab controversy kashmir valley has been started with terrorism . the forcefully excretion of hindus (kashmiri pandit) from valley is also full of tragedic. it is question from my side to all hindus and all hindus communities also in all over world have we ever try to think wat the hell is happening with hindus towards us. muslims and sikh communities make fun of hindus god & godess. i want to know why. i d’nt think we have any answer. its our duty we should know the answer. we should tell them we can cut every head which would raise in pride of our culture and tradition. wat about babri masjid in 1992 , it is really matter of shame for hindus being a hindu and living in hindustan we cant make a temple for us. wat the fuck is this. i am also hindu only 23 year old. if i ll get weapon right know i ll kill whole hindu society leaders. becoz wt they did for us 1n 1984,1992.2002. only collecting the money from innocent peoples as relief funding. i want to debate on position and condtions of hindus in hindustan. rest i ll discuss later wen i ll get response from any other reader of ths blog. any one can reply me on my email id. jai shankar. only hindu will survive and rule in hindustan
how dare you blame us sikhs for 1984
good info about gohra riots..BUT ALSO PRESENT MAJOR INFO IN X V/S Y STYLE IN A SINGLE PAGE…HLEPS A LOT TO EMAIL..
and to MR.deepak,let me tell u mop142w451e3256q that i live in US and independent voter your family is i think safe ’cause sikh’s sacrifices in india, so don’t ever,ever mnot3234r2
@Sandeep – you said : Sikhs militant killed 100,000 hindus & drive away 2 million hindus from punjab between 1980 to 1990::::5000 sikhs killed in 1984 is very small reaction for thier ills
my answer to you is.. bring me even one single Hindu from punjab who says that 1 lakh Hindus were killed and 2 million were forced to leave punjab. Get me the facts and dont just make it up on your own. I know there were some killings at that time and few of them were killed bcoz they were desecrating Guru Granth sahib ji in punjab and raping girls. The media never mentioned the reason why they were being killed. And on the other hand.. there were many Govt. agents who were doing all this on purpose in order to denigrate Sikhs. Get your facts cleared before you make any comment.
You talk about that butcher of Punjab KPS Gill who killed innocent Sikhs in punjab .and you call it elimination of militants. Is a 4 year old boy militant… or is a 68 year old person militant. Because of morons like u Sikhs have been labelled as extremists. But Sikhs have always stood agains the tyranny and injustice and they will continue to do so. No matter how many genocides and massacres the indian Govt. plans agains them.